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Smudge 5/12/2015 8:15 AM
*loves you all*
ShiningEagle 4/9/2015 5:08 PM
Was never here.
zoltando 3/19/2015 3:28 PM
I had mine ready, along with the corned beef and cabbage
Intayazz 3/16/2015 10:51 AM
Everyone have their green ready for tomorrow?
Jaggie 12/24/2014 8:47 PM
Merry Christmas. :)
zoltando 11/27/2014 6:09 PM
Happy thanksgiving!
Nklos 11/20/2014 1:16 AM
-*Warms hands by the fire.*
Aluatris 10/31/2014 4:45 PM
Second: Creatively - charged bard in the house. Y'all just watch out ;)
Aluatris 10/31/2014 4:45 PM
First: That was a beautiful tribute Vali. Thank you for sharing with us! :)
Lanaliathe 10/22/2014 12:13 AM
Shared something that I've kept to myself for far too long...
Lanaliathe 10/13/2014 12:03 PM
Happy Thanksgiving - I am thankful for having known you all. :)
Lanaliathe 9/23/2014 10:22 PM
*sneaksneaksneak* *waves* *random tacklehugs* *flees*

Archie (Member) 4/22/2012 2:17 PM EST : RE: Languages
GP User: Slawler

Posts: 223

I don't recall ever saying that. I hold drow to speak a language of their own, and speak dialects based on tribe. 

I respond to your canon says so, period by citing some of the places DnD says otherwise.

"Anything you want to change, you can." Reference to written adventures, DMG, p 5.

"Every Dungeon Master is the creator of his or her own campaign world. Whether you use the Greyhawk setting or another published setting for the D&D game,  such as the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, it's still your world." Reference to modifiability in worlds, DMG p 6.

"Beyond simply adjudicating, sometimes you are going to want to change things. That's okay." Reference to ability to change rules, DMG p 14.

"Of course, you are always free to pick and choose from the published material and use only what you like." Ability to choose details from canonical campaign settings, DMG p 129. 


Jaggie (SuperAdmin) 4/22/2012 3:04 PM EST : RE: Languages

Guild Leader/Admin
Jaggie (Thelanis)

Posts: 1727

This was really cool talking about languages and everyones views on them.

Saddly I feel that this thread is gone off the rails and may be heading somewhere that I do not want it to go.

Agree to disagree and leave everything at that, please.
*Pages in a book*
I don't make the rules, I just follow them... Because it makes you angry.

"If all the world was painted dark, and all the skies turned grey, then please tell me [if you could] when would it be 'day'?"~ MidnightRyoko

Smudge (SuperAdmin) 4/22/2012 4:01 PM EST : RE: Languages
GP User: Smudge_ddo

Posts: 519

Yup, you're correct, Xy, that (as far as I know) cant isn't canonical. It was something that was in 2nd edition, but not, (again as far as I know) in 3rd. It's something that makes sense to have though, so we use it. Traditionally, thieves cant also is a lot more limited, in truth, than we make it. In reality, it usually covers thiefy type activities and the various things involved with them and is not a full language of its own. It's more fun having it be a full language though, so plotting and saying things the whole table doesn't need to understand, can easily be done.

I kind of see both sides of this. As a DM.. simplicity and having everyone on the same page usually wins out. The idea of different dialects and accents, with the most isolated of the tribes and cultures having their own distinct languages, makes sense from this perspective. Where most of the elves could understand the written form of the other fairly easily, and most of the spoken form, though the differences might cause some misunderstandings here and there. Speaking the other form would be like someone from say, the deep south, going to England and expecting to know all the lingo and use it properly. Unlikely to happen. So, I guess to put it simply, from a DM's point of view, I'd see it more like english and it's variants. Someone from Australia speaks english differently from someone in England, who speaks it differently from someone in Scotland, who speaks it differently from someone in the northern United States, who speaks it differently from someone in Canada, etc. They can all understand each other (most of the time), but the thickest of the accents and dialects is almost foreign at times.

House rules are a great thing, goodness knows how many my house has. In fact, most of you playing in the 2nd ed campaign who are learning 2nd are really learning our bastardized version of it. When everyone is on the same page, they're great. When you bring in people who don't know those rules, and have no reason to, they've never played with you before, after all, that's when it gets complicated. If someone disagrees with a house rule for some reason, and you want to keep playing with them, it's time to find a compromise. Often, this means going with cannon, that's why it's there, after all. It puts everyone on the same playing field.

As far as it making sense in reality... I see what you're saying, Ara. Though, I would argue that the elven mind is markedly different than the human mind. They tend to hold more tightly to tradition and heritage and do not tend to like change. I think, on top of their long life spans, this could be an argument for the language changing even more slowly.
Take a race that remembers in distinct detail, every moment of their long lives, should they wish to (reverie), that holds tradition and heritage to be deeply important and thus passes knowledge down carefully to their sons and daughters, that resists change, so said sons and daughters do not drastically alter it. Those cultures of the elves and drow that have great scholars would also study the histories as meticulously laid down by their forbears. This leaves little room for drastic changes, except perhaps in the drow tribes who are most isolated, and who have only or mostly verbal traditions. I would see the drow tribal languages to be the most markedly different. All in all though, it would again boil down to something similar to different dialects of english.
There is a lot of room here though for differences! There are areas that blend english and one or two other languages. Sure, you can pick up the gist of what they're saying if they're trying to be clear, but you're unlikely to pick up much at all other than a few words if they're speaking quickly to another native speaker, unless you know the other two languages. Even then, the shifting of thought from word to word would cause stumbles until you were used to the way they strung the languages together.
Heck, even think of an American hillbilly talking to a Scottish um.. hillbilly. My brain bends at the thought.

I definitely agree that having the different languages adds flavor. I very much enjoy it when bits of Aereni and such are thrown about. Honestly, especially on the characters that don't know the language. Most of my characters don't have the int score for knowing tons of languages so I find it fun to be in the dark sometimes.

It shouldn't be hard to find a compromise. Play how it is fun for you, but remember that may not be as fun for others, and thus, you may have to make allowances for said others if you wish to play with them. That goes for both the people who stick straight to cannon, and those who use their own house rules. Play nice.


Nklos (SuperAdmin) 4/23/2012 2:27 AM EST : RE: Languages

Posts: 2187

Smudge and Jaggie summed up my thoughts pretty well, so I'll try to keep this short.

The elves existed, the drow were made from the elves.  Elves left to Arenel (Valinar, Undying Court, and The Vol are the three major branches of  elves.  All three speaking the same language they spoke when in Xen'Drik.)  These elves had minimal contact with any other races, the only one they really had contact with were the dragons.  The elves held tightly to their culture and made the utmost effort to not let it change.  On top of that, two of the three sects of elves had ways of keeping their people alive after death... you know so even with their extended life, once they died, they still were alive to keep their language the same.  Think of them kind of like Arabic and.... oh which country was it, I want to say Iceland where their language has not changed in the last thousand or so years because even with influencing cultures coming in, they translate all movies and books into their language.  (Really funny part of the documentary I am thinking of where they talk about how hard it was to translate Robocop into the words that existed so long ago.)

The Drow had their language, and their masters, the giants language.  Again these were highly isolated people.  It could be argued that Sulutar Drow's speech might have drifted, they some times communed with critters from Fernia.  But really, that would just be a different dialect.  The Umbragen are the ones that went to Kyber, they would probably be the only ones if any that might have a seprate language.  But that is because they would have had lots of dealings with other intelligent races in Khyber.
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Points Deway (SuperAdmin) 4/23/2012 3:21 AM EST : RE: Languages

Seneschal /
Guild Successor
Points (Thelanis)

Points Deway
Posts: 1513

I have to agree with Sunky on this. Languages do diverge. Dialects appear and disappear, yet base languages are set so characters can interact with each other. Your Drow is not so different from my Drow that they cannot communicate or understand one another. Otherwise you wouldn't be speaking Drow.

Put another way, I do not read or speak Italian, but because it has the same roots as French and to some extent English (i.e.: Latin) I can usually discern the root vocabulary and find understanding. I think of Elvish vs. Drow as similar. Obviously there will be some vocabulary that doesn't cross but basically is the same.


Deadslug (Applicant) 4/24/2012 11:25 AM EST : RE: Languages
Posts: 90

I AM ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I sees the topic as moot. 
My character is my character.  If I play my drow elven bard that she can only communicate with small pebbles..... she can only communicate with small pebbles.  My fantasy allows my vulkoorim drow favored soul to speak with a heavy Russian accent speaking english.  I like to imagine her sounding a lot like Natasha from Rocky and Bulwinkle. 
I'm sorry, Russ, you can't play your warforged like "that".  According to Eberron history, a warforged simply wouldn't act like that.  You need to play your fantasy character according to the way I feel you should play your fantasy character or according to the way I saw described in this book I read.  19's back story is not very Eberron history credible.  Who gives a large rodent's tushy?  I like it, and I play it, and when you interact with 19, that's the story you'll interact with.  Uh.... sorry?  When I play with Archie's character, my characters should interact with Archie's characters the way Archie presented them.  When I play with Smudgie's characters I interact with them the way Smudgie presented them.. Archie's chars aren't mine?  Smudgie's characters aren't mine.  Jaggie's characters aren't getting my cookies.  I enjoy people responding to my character's stories and helping me progress them. 
My elves speak?  If it helps my story to have others not understand my elf.  Cool.  Am I using the topic as a way to exclude those I don't wish to role-play with?  Then language isn't the problem.

Be excellent to each other..... and..... Party on dudes!!!!!!

I'm Russ Taylor, and that's what I think.

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