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Reyyvin (Member) 6/8/2010 10:32 PM EST : WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Reyyvin
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Hey all

Here's a draft of my WF Intimitank.  Currently level 8 (figher 7/rogue 1)

The levels for Rogue are set to 'optimum' for Skill points for Intimidate, UMD, and Balance.  Problem is, level 18 is way too late for Evasion.  What is a better level?  Should I focus on another skill besides balance (spot or jump maybe)?

level 1 feat is Adamantine body, which I'll swap out later for Mithral Body

I've already been advised to swap out Improved Shield Bash.  What should I take to replace it (fighter feat)?

I'm taking Bastard Sword, since with U5, it will grant glancing blows.  glancing blows = more hate = more aggro.  Would these 4 feats be better spent elsewhere (will also free up 6 AP)? Maybe +3 hit (weapon focus chain) or mobility/spring attack/whirlwind attack.  Is Resilience worth taking (when I need a save boost, such as when I'm in turtle mode or walking through traps)?

Will Stunning Blow and Improved Trip have high enough DCs to be effective (+10 vertigo weapon and +5 enhancements)?  if not, will open 2 'fighter' feats and 18 AP

Please note that this build only uses +1 Str, +1 Dex, and +1 Con tomes.  I will TR this toon (probably to human) and see if that plays better (either SD or Defender of Siberys).  After that, I'll TR again to 'final' version and use some +2s (Str, Con, Dex... maybe others).

AC: 68 (without counting ANY uber gear or buffs. I have the Chaosguardes)
10 Base
+12 Armor (Mithral Body and DT docent.  Max dex +7 from Mithral body and Armor mastery II)
+9 Shield (+5 Mithral Tower Shield/Levik's Defender.  Max dex +7 from Mithral and Stalwart Defender III)
+7 Dex
+5 deflection
+10 Feat (+1 dodge feat, +5 CE, +3 Stalwart defender III)
+4 Dodge (Stalwart Defender III Stance)
+2 Dodge (Chaosguarde)
+5 blocking
+2 Insight (Greater Parrying weapon)
+1 Alchemical Armor
+1 Alchemical Shield

others, possible +21 AC
+5 Natural (bark)
+5 Pali Aura
+2 Luck (Recitation)
+1 Dodge (haste)
+4 Bard Song
+4 AP Armor boost

that said... I know I'll want a Chattering Ring (+3 dodge) and +4-5 Insight (Min II weapon/Levik's defender set, DT Soverign rune, etc) for +5-6 extra AC.  Max possible AC = 94 (assuming i'm factoring everything correctly... can't have levik's defender +5 and Chaoseguarde at same time.  does something else give +2 dodge?).  Is there anything I'm missing?

Saves... looks like 25/25/15.  is 25 reflex enough with Evasion? [+2 vs traps]
Fort: 11 lvl +7 stat +5 item +2 insight (greater parrying)
Reflex: 9 lvl +7 stat +2 feat +5 item +2 insight (greater parrying)
Will: 6 lvl +1 stat +5 item +1 feat +2 insight (greater parrying)

Intimidate is 56... 58 with skill boost.  is this enough?  anything i'm forgetting?
1 (12 Cha)
+23 points
+15 item
+5 Feat (bull-headed, SF)
+6 Feat (Stalwart Defender III)
+2 Feat (Fighter Intimidate II)
+4 GH

UMD is 34
1 (12 Cha)
+23 points
+3 Feat (SF)
+3 item (Golden Cartooche/Circlet of Persuasion... is there anything better?)
+4 GH

Balance is 38
7 (dex)
+20 points
+15 item
-8 (-2 mithral plating, -6 mithral tower shield)
+4 GH

Any help is appreciated!


Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Male
(18 Fighter \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 386 (+20 Minos, +60 Con item, +30 GFL = 496)
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 15
Will: 5

[B]                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)[/U]     (Level 1)       (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3

               Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)           (Level 20)
Balance               7                    24
Bluff                    -2                    -2
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        6                     6
Haggle                1                     1
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate            2                    34
Jump                  7                    11
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             7                     8
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                6                     6
Search                6                     6
Spot                  2                     2
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      2                    24

Level 1 Rogue          *Feat: Adamantine Body [swap later for Mithral body]
Level 2: Fighter        Feat: Dodge
Level 3: Fighter        Feat: Combat Expertise
                              *Feat: Toughness
Level 4: Fighter
Level 5: Fighter        Feat: Improved Trip
Level 6: Fighter       *Feat: Skill Focus-Intimidate
Level 7: Fighter        Feat: Stunning Blow
Level 8 Fighter
Level 9: Fighter        Feat: Shield Mastery
                              *Feat: Skill Focus - UMD
Level 10: Fighter
Level 11: Fighter    Feat: Improved Shield Mastery
Level 12: Fighter    *Feat: Bull Headed
Level 13: Fighter    Feat: Exotic Weapon Prof- Bastard Sword
Level 14: Fighter
Level 15: Fighter    Feat: 2-handed Fighting
                            *Feat: Toughness
Level 16: Fighter
Level 17: Fighter    Feat: Improved 2-handed fighting
Level 18: Rogue    *Feat: Lightning Reflexes
Level 19: Fighter
Level 20: Fighter    Feat: Greater 2-handed fighting
(* are general Feats)

Enhancements
Fighter Armor Boost I-III (pre-req)
Fighter Armor Mastery I-II
Stalwart Defender I-III
Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I-II
Fighter Strategy (Trip) I-II
Fighter Item Defense I-II (pre-req)
Racial Toughness I-II
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Fighter Intimidate I-II (pre-req)
Rogue Dex I
Fighter Str I-II
Warforged Con I
Fighter Tougness I-III (pre-req)
Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Warforged Brute Fighting I-III
Warforged Tactics I-III
Warforged Great Weapon Aptitide I-III

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Redraider2 (Officer) 6/9/2010 7:50 PM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique
Redraider2
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Build looks really good.  On evasion, I like to take it around lvl 10 for Gianthold stuff.

Need to get Intim to 62 minimum for end game.  Bullheaded or SF: Intim

Gotta get HPs to 550 min.  My Rapunzel had it all except just 504 HPs and could be one shot wiped in ToD on Norm.  Need 550 HPs to survive his Disintegration. 

Finally, in early lvls, the Addy body's HUGE skill check penalty really screws up trip and stunning blow if you plan to use them. 
Paul from Atlanta GA
Team RedRaider
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Reyyvin (Member) 6/10/2010 11:27 AM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Reyyvin
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Redraider2 said:
Build looks really good.  On evasion, I like to take it around lvl 10 for Gianthold stuff.

Need to get Intim to 62 minimum for end game.  Bullheaded or SF: Intim

Gotta get HPs to 550 min.  My Rapunzel had it all except just 504 HPs and could be one shot wiped in ToD on Norm.  Need 550 HPs to survive his Disintegration. 

Finally, in early lvls, the Addy body's HUGE skill check penalty really screws up trip and stunning blow if you plan to use them. 


thanks for the input Red!  I do have a few questions.

For Intimidate, I'm counting a +6 Cha item, +15 Intimidate item, both feats, skill boost, GH, Prestige Enhancement, and +2 from enhancements.  I know I can get another +3 on my DT Docent (+3 exceptional Cha skills from Eldritch Rune).  Additionally, I can get +2 from Fighter Intimidate III-IV.  Assuming I only take III (for 3 AP), that brings the total to 60, with 20 second skill boosts to 62 (will I need the 63?).  What is the bonus from Inspire Compenance?  Is there anything I'm missing?

For HP.  I forgot a feat at level 15, so I added another Toughness Feat.  With a +2 Tome (don't really want to use, as I'll TR at 20), WF Con II, Racial Toughness III-IV, and Fighter Toughness IV, that will bring my total to 546 (costing 15 AP).  Are there other items that can boost HP?  Should I drop SF UMD for another Toughness Feat (bringing total to 568)?

If these are the best options, what enhancements do you suggest I drop? 

You also mentioned that the Skill check penalty from addy body applies to Trip and Stunning fist.  Does that also apply to the Tower Shield SCP?  If so, that means -8 total with Mithral Body and Mithral Tower Shield.  Are Improved Trip and Stunning Fist still worth taking, or should I drop one and just focus on boosting the DC on the one I keep?  If so, which is better to keep?

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Redraider2 (Officer) 6/14/2010 7:07 AM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique
Redraider2
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On the UMD and Intim - you need to craft a +6 Cha skills shroud item.  Pretty much no way around it on this type of build.  It's not too bad, I think its two scales.

For HP - 546 should be fine, but 568 is better!  If you can get to 42 umd with the shroud item withour SF:Umd - that would be a good thing.  The extra points for TR really help here.

On the Skill check, the question is  - Will you be running around in sword and board mode all the time?  Many I know switch between TWF and S&B or THF and S&B depending on situational needs.  More DPS when needed.  Turtle up and Intim when needed.  Very few of the regular quests require an intimmer while its a huge bonus for many raids.  Being able to switch modes make the character much more versatile and usually, much more fum.

You don't need the THF feats to be a great THFer!
Paul from Atlanta GA
Team RedRaider
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Domtro (Officer) 6/19/2010 7:42 AM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Domtro
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Here's my Human Stalwart Defender's Intim breakdown:

23 ranks
3 Cha Mod
6 Stalwart Defender III
4 Fighter Intimidate IV
1 Deneith Intimidate I
2 Bullheaded
3 SF: Intimidate
2 Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
15 item
6 Cha Skills (shroud)
2 (luck, HoGF)
====================
67 Total

4 GH
2 Bard Song
2 Monk
1 Yuguloth Pot
1 Store Cha Pot
1 House D Cha Pot
2 House D Cha Skills Pot
====================
80 Buffed Total

To get Queen Lailat on Epic you need a 79 so this is enough. I'll be respeccing for Human Versatility boosts at some point so I'm not relying on so many pots.

Obviously you can't get all of these as a WF but it'll hopefully give you some ideas where to improve.

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Reyyvin (Member) 6/19/2010 12:39 PM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Reyyvin
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Redraider2 said:
On the UMD and Intim - you need to craft a +6 Cha skills shroud item.  Pretty much no way around it on this type of build.  It's not too bad, I think its two scales.

For HP - 546 should be fine, but 568 is better!  If you can get to 42 umd with the shroud item withour SF:Umd - that would be a good thing.  The extra points for TR really help here.

On the Skill check, the question is  - Will you be running around in sword and board mode all the time?  Many I know switch between TWF and S&B or THF and S&B depending on situational needs.  More DPS when needed.  Turtle up and Intim when needed.  Very few of the regular quests require an intimmer while its a huge bonus for many raids.  Being able to switch modes make the character much more versatile and usually, much more fum.

You don't need the THF feats to be a great THFer!


So far, i've been primarily S/B.  even in situations where Intim isn't strictly needed/doesn't work, the extra AC means I usually won't get hit.  I'm still *usually* pretty good with DPS (thanks to Xhall and his extensive library of frosted weapons).

With Dex so high, should I do 2WF chain instead of 2HF?  With Bastard swords, this will let me do S/B (effective 2HF - Warforged enhancements) or 2WF for more versatility

for UMD, my 34 total includes SF-UMD.  With the +6 shroud item, that boosts to 40.  Skill boost will add a temp boost to 42, long enough for raise/heal/reconstruct scrolls.  With bard song and VoM, I won't need the SF, but can't always count on it.


Domtro said:
Here's my Human Stalwart Defender's Intim breakdown:

23 ranks
3 Cha Mod
6 Stalwart Defender III
4 Fighter Intimidate IV
1 Deneith Intimidate I
2 Bullheaded
3 SF: Intimidate
2 Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
15 item
6 Cha Skills (shroud)
2 (luck, HoGF)
====================
67 Total

4 GH
2 Bard Song
2 Monk
1 Yuguloth Pot
1 Store Cha Pot
1 House D Cha Pot
2 House D Cha Skills Pot
====================
80 Buffed Total

To get Queen Lailat on Epic you need a 79 so this is enough. I'll be respeccing for Human Versatility boosts at some point so I'm not relying on so many pots.

Obviously you can't get all of these as a WF but it'll hopefully give you some ideas where to improve.


very nice!  I'll know where to aim for the second incarnation.  So the extra points from TR should definitely go into Cha then?


To both of you (or anyone else).  For the +6 shroud item, what is best slot (I'm thinking goggles)?  Should I go for Air (haste/knockdown guard) vs Positive (true res/greater disruption guard)?  or is the Lightning Guard the best option? (will probably take up all my shroud crafting stuff)

For first GS weapon, is it worth going the +AC route.  +7 insight looks nice.  

What type of bonus is the +6 shroud item?  if its not Exceptional, then it will stack with +3 bonus DT armor can get.

extra bonus to intimidate... Past life fighter gives +2 Intimidate, in addition to +1 dex armor and -1 SCP.

At higher levels, what are the Fort and Refl DCs to avoid spells (trash vs boss helpful)?

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Domtro (Officer) 6/19/2010 4:49 PM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Domtro
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Reyyvin said:


very nice!  I'll know where to aim for the second incarnation.  So the extra points from TR should definitely go into Cha then?

I wouldn't say anything for definite but it wouldn't hurt.


To both of you (or anyone else).  For the +6 shroud item, what is best slot (I'm thinking goggles)?  Should I go for Air (haste/knockdown guard) vs Positive (true res/greater disruption guard)?  or is the Lightning Guard the best option? (will probably take up all my shroud crafting stuff)

I made goggles as Tharne's aren't really that great for an intimi tank.


For first GS weapon, is it worth going the +AC route.  +7 insight looks nice.  

The different tiers of Insight don't stack. Putting it on the final tier for +4 is totally worth doing.


What type of bonus is the +6 shroud item?  if its not Exceptional, then it will stack with +3 bonus DT armor can get.

Exceptional so doesn't stack.


extra bonus to intimidate... Past life fighter gives +2 Intimidate, in addition to +1 dex armor and -1 SCP.

At higher levels, what are the Fort and Refl DCs to avoid spells (trash vs boss helpful)?

No idea

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Reyyvin (Member) 6/26/2010 5:21 PM EST : RE: WF Stalwart Defender... please critique

Reyyvin
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Update.  Level 11

"normal" gear

goggles: +13 Spot
helm: +7 Intimidate
neck: Con +4
trinket:  Voice of Master
cloak: +4 Cha                       [also +3 resistance]
belt: Greater False Life
ring: Protection +3
ring: varies                           [Int +5, resist cold 20, resist lightning 20, light fort, balance +7]
gloves: Open Locks +11         [haven't found any decent 'normal' gloves]
boots: Dex +4                       [also FF, 15% striders]
bracers: Str +5
armor: +5 Docent of Command


Level 11 True Neutral Warforged Male
(9 Fighter \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 271
Spell Points: 0
BAB: +10

[B]                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)[/U]     (Level 1)       (Level 11)
Strength             16                    19 (25)
Dexterity            16                    17 (22)
Constitution         16                    17 (22)
Intelligence         14                    14 (19)
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              6                     6 (10)

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3

                    base ranks    modified total (optimum gear, heroism, and tower shield).  also +2 with skill boost
Skills            
Balance                 13.5                  14.5
Disable Device         6                      21
Haggle                    3                     11
Intimidate               14                     31
Jump                      7                      9
Open Lock               4                     20 (25 picks)
Search                    4                     18
Spot                       4                    15
Tumble                   1                     2
Use Magic Device    14                   19

Level 1 Rogue          *Feat: Mithral Body
Level 2: Fighter        Feat: Dodge
Level 3: Fighter        Feat: Combat Expertise
                              *Feat: Toughness
Level 4: Fighter
Level 5: Fighter        Feat: Improved Trip
Level 6: Fighter       *Feat: Skill Focus-Intimidate
Level 7: Fighter        Feat: Exotic Weapon Prof - Bastard Sword
Level 8 Fighter
Level 9: Fighter        Feat: Two-Handed Fighting
                              *Feat: Bull headed
Level 10: Rogue
Level 11: Fighter

Enhancements (subject to change with new gear... will change in 2 days)
Fighter Armor Boost I (pre-req)
Fighter Haste Boost I
Rogue Skill Boost I
Fighter Armor Mastery I
Stalwart Defender I
Fighter Strategy (Trip) I-II
Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Racial Toughness I-II
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Fighter Intimidate I-II (pre-req)
Rogue Dex I
Fighter Str I
Warforged Con I
Fighter Tougness I-II (pre-req)
Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Warforged Brute Fighting I-II
Warforged Tactics I

AC: 39... 44 with CE.  49 blocking, not counting any buffs/potions

10 Base
+10 Armor (Mithral Body and DT docent.  Max dex +6)
+8 Shield (+4 Mithral Tower Shield.  Max dex +6)
+6 Dex
+3 deflection
+7 Feat (+1 dodge feat, +5 CE, +1 Stalwart defender I)
+2 Dodge (Stalwart Defender I Stance)


+3 Blocking
+2 Insight (Greater Parrying weapon)

Saves... using +3 resistance and heroism.  can use +4 resistance shield, but -5 AC.  can add +2 with Greater Parrying
Fort: 20
Reflex: 20
Will: 10

Intimidate is 33
  0 (10 Cha)
+14 points
+7 item
+5 Feat (bull-headed, SF)
+2 Feat (Stalwart Defender I)
+2 Feat (Fighter Intimidate II)
+2 Heroism
+1 Voice

UMD is 19
  0 (10 Cha)
+14 points
+2 item (Command)
+1 Voice
+2 Heroism

I've also discovered that if u have an item you don't have UMD for, then use a spell/boost to where u can use it, once the boost/spell wears off, you can still use the item until you un-equip it!

Any comments?

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