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Reyyvin (Member) 4/14/2010 9:25 PM EST : suggestions on feats and GS

Reyyvin
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Hi all

Sharindra here.  as some of you may know, this is my first toon and I just made level 16!  I've been following the "A guide to Creating Paladins" thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542 on main forums, using the Human 2 handed fighter build.

Stats (28 pt build):
S: 16 +4 lvl, +6 item = 26
D: 8 +6 item = 14
C: 13 +5 item = 18
I: 8
W: 8 +6 item = 14 [need for spellcasting]
Ch: 17 +6 item+2 enh+2 tome = 27

AC: pathetic.  24 unbuffed (29 shield) with +4 Gleaming Adamantine Plate.  its probably a lost cause to help increase it.
hp: 332

Enhancements: Dps aimed, but also lots of LoH. for PrC, I'm using Knight of Chalice (+DPS vs outsiders, and until fixed, undead)

First off, I need help with Feats.  I have Power Attack, improved Crit: slashing, toughness, and all 2-handed fighting (normal, improved, greater).  What should I take for levels 15 and 18?  I currently have extend spell (recommended), but only useful for Zeal and Divine Favor; because I use Virtue constantly, i usually forget to activate Extend.  For level 18, suggested is SF: UMD or Stunning Blow (already have suggestion NOT to take SB, since DC will be low.... at level 20, my UMD will be 11 (pts) + 7 (28 Cha) +2 (Command) = 20.  Will +3 really help, and are their items (other then Golden Cartouche) that really help?


Second area.  Green Steel and raid loot.

Items of "note" (may have other properties, but not important)

helm: minos legens
Goggles: Blindness Ward and +10 Spot
cloak: +6 cha
Belt: GFL
Ring: +5 Con
Ring: +6 Wis [also have FF, resist 20 cold, resist 20 elec]
Gloves: +4 Dex
Feet: 25% striders [also have FF]
bracers: +6 Str
neck: UA [also have +5 Wis item if I really need ring slot free, but can't cast level 4 spells without +6]
Trinket: Power X and VoM [I also have Dusk Heart, but don't use it due to GFL belt]
Armor: +4 Gleaming Adamantine Plate (DR 3, immune poison, command) [also have Bloodplate and Deathblock Robe for Death Ward)
Weapons: usual array of banishers, paralyzers, smiters, vorpals, disruptors, DPS, and a partridge in a pear tree.

I know most of these will want to be replaced with raid/farmable items.

From reading forum, I see Mineral II as most common GS.  With Holy Sword (+5 Holy Burst Cold Iron/Silver/Byeshk), Min II isn't as important.  What enhancements should I get?

With newb eyes, at a minimum, I want +1/+2 exceptional Str and Cha (love Smite evil and enhancements... need more smiting!)  These look best, but I'm probably wrong), not sure what else to add on.

What raid/named items and GS combos should I aim for?

Thanks for all the help everyone has given me!

Reyy

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Misscarlet (SuperAdmin) 4/15/2010 8:08 AM EST : RE: suggestions on feats and GS
Misscarlet
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Honestly, I'm not convinced by that build you have followed.  Paladins are the hardest character to get your stats right on, as you have to spread them so much and with 28 points its just not enough.  They are probably the worst class in game to make a 28 point build with because of that.  But if you do make a 28 point paladin you have to make some tough descisions.

First of all you must be able to hit things at end game, and there isn't much point if you aren't doing any damage.  Power attack with only 26 strength may be an issue, as although you will do more damage when you hit, if you only hit 50% of the time and miss the other 50% then you are overall doing less damage and would be better with power attack off.  You will find it hard to hit a lot of end game things/raid bosses with power attack and a 26 str.  Even high end barbarians are better turning power attack off to hit the djinnis in epic dragon.

Second of all you must have enough hp's.  If you are going to melee raid bosses you need to be survivable or you are a drain on the clerics mana, and believe me it is precious in high end raids.  They are not going to down endless mana pots just because they have to overheal one person.  They are most likely to let people without enough hp's stay dead when they die.  This may sound harsh but its true, there is nothing worse than mass healing a group but having to overheal as one of the group didn't have enough hps.  You would be looking for at the very least 400 hps to melee in shroud or any of the higher raids.  So what I am saying is con is important.  A good starting place on con is 14+6item+2tome= 22.  The higher the better really though.  The 3xx you said you had is low, I'm going to be brutally honest with you, as you are looking for help. 

To give you an example, my paladin (who is 32 point build and fighter splash) has 541 hps at lvl 20.  So as a 28 point build I would be aiming for a minimum of 450 by lvl 20 using that as a rough guide.  You can take the toughness feat multiple times and I would absolutely advise you to do so, I have it three times.  I would use your 15 and 18 feats for this.  It will boost your hps right up into the acceptable zone.  The greensteal item I wear on my paladin is exestential stalemate.  There are various ways to build this but mine gives extra HP's, along with wizardry 6 for spell points and wisdom +6 (excellent spot saver)

As for ac, these days (at end game) unless your ac is over 60 then you might as well have 20.  There is no point worrying about ac on a twohanded melee toon.  Go for hps.  So yea on a 28 point pali that is twohanded fighter I can buy into 8 dex.

In my opinion, that build has the wisdom too low and the charisma too high.  I suppose when working with 28 points dropping wisdom to the minimum you need to cast spells carries a little weight but having a few spell points are nice, you can often help out with extra resists, will be called upon to deathward the whole party when there is no cleric, and need to cast Zeal on yourself every couple of minutes.  As for the charisma, the extra saves a high charisma gives you is nice, of course, but ultimately you are still a melee class, and if you can't hit things then you aren't that much use.  Personally I would (especially on a 28 point build) cut that charisma down a few points, perhaps to 14 base.  14+2tome+6 item+2 enhancements = 24.  With a 24 charisma I have saves of 35/25/25 unbuffed.  That is plenty.

As for greensteel, after much deliberation I went with Lightning Strike for my main weapon.  Although mineral 2 is nice, I decided it was almost redundant for a pali because of holy sword, and that at end game 90% of mobs are immune to acid. 

Regarding Stunning Blow, this feat is for very high str characters only.   Barbarians or fighters that are built for it.  My fighter who uses stunning blow has 36 str and her dc on stunning blow is 39.  This still misses sometimes in the subterrane and higher level areas.  That is with all the stunning blow fighter enhancements and with a weighted 5% item.

Hope this helps.   Pali's are definately the hardest to make good at 28 point builds, perhaps later on you can consider greater reincarnation to 32 point when you have 32 point available.
... its all in good fun until someone loses an eye!

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Domtro (Officer) 4/15/2010 12:07 PM EST : RE: suggestions on feats and GS

Domtro
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Get a +6 con neck, human con, human strength and +1 str tome. Keep Divine Favour up as much as possible and you should be ok with PA most of the time, just pay attention if you're missing a lot. You can also get Divine Might for more situational DPS. When you get level 20 and a +2 str tome (1750 favour!) you'll have a 30str.

Reyyvin said:

For level 18, suggested is SF: UMD or Stunning Blow (already have suggestion NOT to take SB, since DC will be low.... at level 20, my UMD will be 11 (pts) + 7 (28 Cha) +2 (Command) = 20.  Will +3 really help, and are their items (other then Golden Cartouche) that really help?


No and no. The numbers he has presented for that build include +2-3 tomes and ToD raid crafting, ridiculous things to include on a 28pt build. Even with those things his 34str with no tactics enhancements is going to do very little with Stunning Blow. The only reason I can think to get 3 more UMD is so you can use higher level race required things, more hitpoints from Toughness would be more useful.

Junts may know his Paladins but I don't think he really thought that build through when posting the 28pt variation. People playing 28pt builds are likely on first characters so don't have good equipment. Also, if you were to invest the +2 and +3 tomes you'd surely want to Greater Res it to 32pts aswell, at that point you can set your stats to the ideal values.

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Reyyvin (Member) 4/15/2010 8:53 PM EST : RE: suggestions on feats and GS

Reyyvin
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Thanks for the replies so far.  also thanks to everyone who is/has helped me in game!

First off, don't worry about hurting my feelings.  I've worked too many years doing customer service to have any left.  Also, any reply/questioning of advice (below) is more due to viewing things with a newbish eye (I like to understand how/why things work) as opposed to your experience with the game.

Misscarlet said:
Honestly, I'm not convinced by that build you have followed.  Paladins are the hardest character to get your stats right on, as you have to spread them so much and with 28 points its just not enough.  They are probably the worst class in game to make a 28 point build with because of that.  But if you do make a 28 point paladin you have to make some tough descisions.


In PnP (my previous DnD experience), Paladins were pretty easy and didn't need a lot of planning.  I figured they also didn't need much skill for MMO.  Shows how much I knew!

Misscarlet said:

First of all you must be able to hit things at end game, and there isn't much point if you aren't doing any damage.  Power attack with only 26 strength may be an issue, as although you will do more damage when you hit, if you only hit 50% of the time and miss the other 50% then you are overall doing less damage and would be better with power attack off.  You will find it hard to hit a lot of end game things/raid bosses with power attack and a 26 str.  Even high end barbarians are better turning power attack off to hit the djinnis in epic dragon.
Misscarlet said:


I haven't used PA regularly for several levels... about the only time I turn it on is when I'm hitting on 2's on Normal (or their DR is so high I'm not doing anything when I hit).  Should I also replace with toughness?  Would Force of Personality be a good option?

Misscarlet said:

Second of all you must have enough hp's.  If you are going to melee raid bosses you need to be survivable or you are a drain on the clerics mana, and believe me it is precious in high end raids.  They are not going to down endless mana pots just because they have to overheal one person.  They are most likely to let people without enough hp's stay dead when they die.  This may sound harsh but its true, there is nothing worse than mass healing a group but having to overheal as one of the group didn't have enough hps.  You would be looking for at the very least 400 hps to melee in shroud or any of the higher raids.  So what I am saying is con is important.  A good starting place on con is 14+6item+2tome= 22.  The higher the better really though.  The 3xx you said you had is low, I'm going to be brutally honest with you, as you are looking for help. 

To give you an example, my paladin (who is 32 point build and fighter splash) has 541 hps at lvl 20.  So as a 28 point build I would be aiming for a minimum of 450 by lvl 20 using that as a rough guide.  You can take the toughness feat multiple times and I would absolutely advise you to do so, I have it three times.  I would use your 15 and 18 feats for this.  It will boost your hps right up into the acceptable zone.  The greensteal item I wear on my paladin is exestential stalemate.  There are various ways to build this but mine gives extra HP's, along with wizardry 6 for spell points and wisdom +6 (excellent spot saver)

As for ac, these days (at end game) unless your ac is over 60 then you might as well have 20.  There is no point worrying about ac on a twohanded melee toon.  Go for hps.  So yea on a 28 point pali that is twohanded fighter I can buy into 8 dex.

In my opinion, that build has the wisdom too low and the charisma too high.  I suppose when working with 28 points dropping wisdom to the minimum you need to cast spells carries a little weight but having a few spell points are nice, you can often help out with extra resists, will be called upon to deathward the whole party when there is no cleric, and need to cast Zeal on yourself every couple of minutes.  As for the charisma, the extra saves a high charisma gives you is nice, of course, but ultimately you are still a melee class, and if you can't hit things then you aren't that much use.  Personally I would (especially on a 28 point build) cut that charisma down a few points, perhaps to 14 base.  14+2tome+6 item+2 enhancements = 24.  With a 24 charisma I have saves of 35/25/25 unbuffed.  That is plenty.


I think the primary reason Cha is so high in that build is for Divine Might IV (for max DPS), which requires 20 Base Cha... which I'm assuming is 17 +3 tome (or 17 +2 tome +1 level).  more Cha = more turn undead = more DM.  Cha also works well with Exulted Smite IV (2x cha mod as hit bonus, +Pal lvl dmg, +2 crit range, x2 crit multiplier.  Using a +5 Falchion (has other stuff on it) and Exulted Smite III, I crit on either 13-20 or 14-20 and x4 dmg, I regularly break 300 dmg before adding in elemental/pure good/KotC extras, ES IV will be more.

Having said that, I rarely use DM; by the time I catch up to everyone they've already ran into the fight and +6 damage (I currently have DM III) isn't worth loosing a few swings needed (time wise) to activate it.  Are there any feats that would help speed it up?

When I hit 1750 favor (only 194 to go!), I will reincarnate if I can.  For stats does this sound good:

Str 18 +5 lvl +1 enh
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 +2 enh

Will add tomes if I get them, preferably str and con.  With this build, I will loose out on DM III and IV (lower "max" DPS), but will save room for more HP and give +1 or +2 hit and dmg bonus vs other build

projected HP on old build is 382 (assuming no more toughness enhancements).  With this respec (and +6 Con item), that will give 420 at level 20, more with extra toughness feats and enhancements.  If I swap PA, level 15, and level 18 feats with toughness, that means ~444 (old build) or 484 (32 pt build), not counting tomes (if I'm calculating it correctly).

Going this route, how does this sound for enhancements:

Paladin Weapons of Good
Unyielding Sovereignty (pre-req)
Follower of the Sovereign Host (pre-req)
Human Adaptability Strength I
Human Improved Recovery I
Paladin Courage of Good I-II (pre-req)
Paladin Divine Righteousness I (increases Aggro)
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I -III (more DPS... for 5 hp and 1 sp, +9d6 dmg and +1 crit multiplier)
Paladin Exalted Smite I-IV
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I -III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil I-IV
Paladin Knight of the Chalice I-III
Racial Toughness I-II
Paladin Energy of the Templar I-II (pre-req)
Paladin Charisma I-II
Paladin Toughness I-III

with 4 toughness feats, Minos Legens, and GFL item, that gives me 528 hp.  This leaves me 6 extra AP; and I can use these on DM II (3), Pally Toughness IV (4), Human Verstility (1, 3, 6), Improved Human Recovery II (4), or something else.  suggestions?

Other then Minos and GFL, what other options do I have for more hp?

With lowering max DPS, it also opens the avenue of possible MC (main reason for Pally Capstone).  What are best options for MC?


Misscarlet said:
As for greensteel, after much deliberation I went with Lightning Strike for my main weapon.  Although mineral 2 is nice, I decided it was almost redundant for a pali because of holy sword, and that at end game 90% of mobs are immune to acid. 


Realistically, how long will it take to build a Lightning Strike weapon?  I have the ingredients to craft a GS Falchion, but what about the enhancements?  3 days between shrouds (I know, 66 hours) x how many ingredients (still not 100% certain how to make Combined Imbued Shards) x drop rate = ?

This is my first toon, and when I get to 1750 favor, I plan on making a variety of others to see what I like playing best; I've played a few other MMOs, but none have held my attention longer then a week or 2.  I'll want to try the different roles and see what I like best before investing too much time farming for any 1 particular toon.  Also, for whatever build I like playing most, I will TR a toon and, at a minimum, buy a +2 all stat Tome with points.

Misscarlet said:
Regarding Stunning Blow, this feat is for very high str characters only.   Barbarians or fighters that are built for it.  My fighter who uses stunning blow has 36 str and her dc on stunning blow is 39.  This still misses sometimes in the subterrane and higher level areas.  That is with all the stunning blow fighter enhancements and with a weighted 5% item.

Hope this helps.   Pali's are definately the hardest to make good at 28 point builds, perhaps later on you can consider greater reincarnation to 32 point when you have 32 point available.


definitely in the cards (reincarnate).  What are best options for MC?

If I splash 1 level, I loose Pally Capstone (+1d6 vs evil; +2d6 dmg vs evil undead/outsiders)
If I splash 2 levels, I loose Divine Sacrifice 3 (reduce extra dmg to 7d6)
If I splash 3 levels, loose Exulted Smite 4 (+1 crit threat range) and KotC III (+2 hit and+2d6 dmg vs evil outsiders - and undead, until they fix bug; 1 smite; msc others)

If I do MC, is it worth raising Int for Improved Trip, and is the DPS loss worth it?  Here's a Fighter 2/Paladin 18 build

Str: 17 + 5 lvl +2 enh+2 tome
Con: 14
Dex: 8
Int: 11 +2 tome (if I do this build, will get one before reincarnate)
Wis: 8
Cha: 14 +2 enh +2 tome

This gives me Intimidate as class skill and +2 feats (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip).  For enhancements, I'm thinking of:

Fighter Haste Boost I
Unyielding Sovereignty (pre-req)
Follower of the Sovereign Host (pre-req)
Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Human Adaptability Strength I
Paladin Courage of Good I-II (pre-req)
Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I-II
Paladin Exalted Smite I-IV
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I-III
Paladin Extra Smite Evil I-IV
Paladin Knight of the Chalice I-III
Racial Toughness I-II
Fighter Intimidate I
Paladin Energy of the Templar I-II (pre-req)
Paladin Charisma I-II
Fighter Strength I
Paladin Toughness I-III

This leaves 8 AP (9 if I remove Intimidate).  many options here.  gives 516 hp with 3 toughness feats and SF: Intimidate (or 464 hp if I swap 1 toughness with Force of Personality for +5 Will save)


Domtro said:
Get a +6 con neck, human con, human strength and +1 str tome. Keep Divine Favour up as much as possible and you should be ok with PA most of the time, just pay attention if you're missing a lot. You can also get Divine Might for more situational DPS. When you get level 20 and a +2 str tome (1750 favour!) you'll have a 30str.


hmmm... extended DF + PA = +1 hit, +11 dmg.  very nice.

Domtro said:

Junts may know his Paladins but I don't think he really thought that build through when posting the 28pt variation. People playing 28pt builds are likely on first characters so don't have good equipment. Also, if you were to invest the +2 and +3 tomes you'd surely want to Greater Res it to 32pts aswell, at that point you can set your stats to the ideal values.


yeah.

So what good loot should I look for?

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Oz-STFU (SuperAdmin) 4/16/2010 10:38 AM EST : RE: suggestions on feats and GS

Oz-STFU
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The way the game is played has changed.  I wouldn't even bother with Greensteel.  I would race to 20 on this toon maxing xp and forgo the loot and TR when I got there.  I would watch my favor as I go and get to 1750 by the time I hit 20.  The game as a whole is geared to completionist now.  By the time you hit 20 you will see what role you want to fill and have enough mats to make a GS item for your next life.  Stay away from the more intense areas.  You will be a liability in Amarath.  Stick to the vale.  Your power will be at least x2 through your next toon.  I have lvl'd to 20 9 times on my account and I look at all of those toons as place holders for next gen.  What little greensteel I had before the cap raise I still have and have nothing but buyers remorse.  1.9 comes so fast you don't even get to enjoy the power in my OP.  I am currently not a big fan of Epic for this very reason.  Yes you wield an epic weapon grats.  You can't earn yourself anything with it.  Once the cap goes up my OP may change but for me its the playablity of the items that make them fun.
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Domtro (Officer) 4/16/2010 1:38 PM EST : RE: suggestions on feats and GS

Domtro
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I don't think you really need 18 str, keep it at 17 and put some more points elsewhere (Wisdom maybe? With Extend you can hand out some very useful buffs). The pally capstone only really comes in if you get some of the epic weapons that don't have Holy/Good on them, your holy sword should work plenty good on things you want to bypass the DR of.

Improved Trip: You won't have a huge str (3-4 behind a fighter, lots less than a barb) nor will you have access to any racial or class tactics enhancements so your DC won't be fantastic. Trip is easier to land than Stunning Blow but I'm not convinced Improved Trip is worth the cost. CE is basically a wasted feat on a THF and the 3 build points could get you some extra pally perks

Force of Personality: Overkill in my opinion, your Will Save should be crazy high already.

As far as loot goes you want +6 wis, cha, con, str, dex, GFL, +1-2 tomes and then shroud crafting stuff (more hitpoints) and raid lootnow you're above level 15. The tricky part with the +6 stat items is getting them on the right items so you can wear them all!

EDIT: I should probably add that I don't actually play a pally so this advice is coming from things I've learned from other pallys and playing my other melee.

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